A Guru’s Interaction with a Fundamentalist Christian

So it starenlightenmentted with a post on Facebook.  It was a conversation between an enlightened spiritual guru, and a 6000-year-old-Earth-believing Christian Bible literalist.  It started with a Bible reference that does not support the Bible literalists’ beliefs that no portion of God can/could/does exist within him, and that he and God are completely separate creatures.

I played the part of the guru (being the only one who had experienced enlightenment in the conversation).  The fundamentalist Christian is a friend of mine from where I grew up.  He is staunch in his beliefs which were handed to him and which developed over a number of years.  I of course am rather comfortable in my understanding of the experience of God I had over 10 years ago, which has only flowered over time.

What follows is a conversation we had just yesterday and today over Facebook.  Please note I had to take some liberties with representing the spiritual truth as I understand it so that it could better fit his vocabulary and ideas, and aid is understanding in relation to what he knows.  That’s why I started with the Bible passage.

Please forgive his spelling mistakes.  I will confirm he’s a smart guy.  Please forgive the bluntness of my message to him, as I speak to him as a friend would another friend.  Please share your comments and thoughts to this article here.  It will start a new thread on Facebook for others to see and learn from on the IAMSpirituality page.

Sean Webb –> LJ
So… how about this,,, You believe in the Trinity, right? Jesus even saying in John 10:30 “the Father and I are one”, right? So everything Jesus says comes to be, as that he is all powerful.

So then in John 17:11-22, Jesus prays that we (you and me – his followers and brothers) become as one with He / the Father. As that Jesus Christ is all powerful, this is not a request, right? It comes to be, lest you either break the Trinity or demean Christ’s power.

So how can you say you are not one and the evil influence of your mind has simply not let you realize it? In the face of Christ himself making it so in John 17:11-21, how can you deny it?

LJ
I believe that most problems we humans encounter are of our own making. I agree it is our thinking or lack of, that gets us in trouble. we must choose to agree and act on Gods universal principles laid out in His word. All that said, we do have real spirits working against us. Ep 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Not knowing your enemies can be very dangerous.

LJ
John 17:15 “My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.” The evil one is Satan. The one who has other fallen angels looking for someone to devour. Sometimes it just me and my own evil thoughts. Sometimes its a spiritual influence working against me.

Sean Webb
The evil one is the mindful existence of self within us that falsely separates us from God. That is the entity that creates fear. That is the entity that creates hate. (I’m proving this at GA Tech’s Algorithms and Randomness Research Center as we lay out the definitions of human emotion for the purpose of compassionate computing.) The reality is that there is no spirit other than God. And there is nothing that is not God in the universe. Only illusions exist that suggest otherwise, including thoughts about evil spirits in the mind. There is no you. There is only God in his many sproutings of glorious manifestations.

It is only your ego’s fight to remain relevant that argues otherwise… “no, I DO exist… I DO matter, and I must struggle against the evil forces that stand against me… I must struggle to remain close to God, for that is my WILL!” When the reality is you are already there with God, and it is only illusion that seems to separate you. Sadly, it is an illusion only the very few are able to shed in their lifetimes to realize God’s truth. I guess that is what Jesus meant when he said the path and gate are narrow, and few will be the number who find it.

LJ
That dangerous belief puts you against Gods plan of salvation only through Jesus. You are telling people what they want to hear and leading people eventually to a real eternal hell. We and all material that makes up the universe is not God. We are created by God. We need God. He loves his creation but gives us free will. He gave you the free will to reject Him. Sean He loves you and wants you to be on His side. You are itellegent and passionate and can do so much good. You remind me of an Apostle Paul who fought againt the truth of Christ. I just pray that you also are touched by Jesus and do a 180 and one day look back and see how horribly wrong you were. I pray that your heart is not already hardened againt the truth of “Only Jesus” Not the fake false Christianity so prominatly seen but. true love and grace in practice. I apologize for the half hearted hypocritical selfish christians. I was one. I am a work in progress. I want you to look with your great intelectual brain at the rare pure truth of Christ. I would not be a christian if I went by how so many so called believers acted. Thanks for your comments. I pray blessings on you and your family. ( I just prayed over your life- you will be used of God for His glory in truth. The one true God will bring you truth)

Sean Webb
God brought me truth personally. I was engulfed in an infinite love that has no bounds, and flooded with an infinite intelligence and wisdom, only part of which my mind can conceive of now. But it delivered the Truth. I once read the messages of Jesus the way you do now. Today I see the deeper meaning and secret teachings in black and white where they were obscured before. I once believed the teachings of the church as they think they understand it… as you do now. Today I see those understandings as the hubris of men that are lost in the stories of their fathers rather than grounded in the truth of God.

I was once blind, but now I see. There’s a very deep meaning to that passage. You’ll understand it the day you make the transition from Earth. But it can be awesome if you enter the Kingdom before then, while your body still breathes… and it makes all of life love, compassion and bliss.

LJ
Thats sounds very dangerous to me to base my eternity on a emotional enlightenment experience that leads me away from Gods inspired scriptures. Im seeking my truth from Gods word were he warns me to be on guard of decieving spirits.

Sean Webb
You need to consult a book for your answers, and you struggle with things like loving your enemy (of which Jesus taught). I only need to look to my experience with God for my answers (which by the way fit naturally with Jesus’ teachings)… and it is now my first nature to be compassionate and even give up my life for my enemy.

You have what you call “faith”, because you as a human without the experience of God are forced to believe something which you have not experienced first hand. I am not in need of faith. I have knowledge of God.

Sean Webb
It’s okay. The reason you cannot give up your mindful beliefs and reach out to actually MEET God and KNOW the truth is that your beliefs are so woven into your very fabric of identity, if they unravel… you unravel. But this is the very real secret of being born again. The YOU (the you that you THOUGHT you were)… dies in the process. It just isn’t some tearful “I give my life to Jesus” moment. When the REAL deal happens… you actually think you are dying. Dead-dead-deadski like. And then the new spiritual you is born into existence… and you come back from the experience carrying with it the knowledge of God’s truth back into the body.

But a person cannot let go of their old self (with its beliefs and dogma and ideas) until they actually experience their true spiritual self. There must be an option before the mind will let go of the old self. And this option only appears,,, and which you can only comprehend… when you meet God.

So there is no option for you, LJ. Not at this point, anyway. You only know your false you, and until that dies and is replaced by the discovery of the spiritual you… you will be tied to your mind’s understanding of God (and the books, and the church’s teachings, etc.), not the reality of God.

And anything to the contrary that you hear to what you believe… will be “dangerous”. But dangerous to what? Your false self and its attachments to its ideas. Your ego. It fights hard against dying. But know that it is the only thing that separates you from meeting God and knowing the truth.

Sean Webb
It may be a foreign concept to your beliefs and/or for your church leaders, but it is not a foreign concept to Christianity at large. Within Christianity, it is most commonly called “Christian Mysticism”. Most of the highest level officials within the Christian churches call it “Receiving God’s Grace”. When it happens within the Catholic ranks they promote you into special Orders of Monks. The colloquial term is called “Seeing the Light” (as that there is a blinding light component to the experience in the beginning that emanates from within – reference Paul on his way to Damascus).

The reason most church leaders don’t know about mysticism or enlightenment or the potential to meet God directly… is that the highest church officials don’t talk about it as something that can or should be attained within the congregation. This is completely understandable because “Receiving God’s Grace” / becoming a “Christian Mystic” / meeting God… is contrary to keeping a congregation. This is because when you get to meet God first hand, and receive His grace, you understand how and where the church loses its way (rather early) in its misunderstanding the teachings of Jesus. Franciscan Friar Richard Rohr (a more famous Christian mystic) calls the way your church teaches the gospel “blasphemy”. And frankly I agree with him. And so… you can see how the born again mystic might then tend to shy away from teachings of churches that are more divisive than inclusive. We’ve met God. We know the truth about Jesus’ teachings. We got the download.

And so of course no one high up in the church ever talks about it… because subsequently, if you have a congregation that winds up becoming enlightened… you wind up not having a congregation… which is not conducive to filling the coffers and paying the bills. It is better to have a flock. A flock of what? Sheep. Take that how you will.

But like I said… it’s all good. You will get there when you pass from your body. It’s just so much awesomer to Enter the Father’s Kingdom well before-hand.

Sean Webb
Do you believe the Earth is 6000 years old?

LJ
Do you believe that billions of years make the impossible , possible?

Sean Webb So that’s a yes, then? You believe the Earth is 6000 years old.

LJ
Do you believe the earth is older because thats the popular way to make sense of the evolution propaganda?

LJ
I believe in a young earth.

LJ
Do you really think all that trillions of barrels of oil came from dead dinosaurs? Little by little science has been catching up with the bible. Science should not be our religion it should be a wonderful way to advance our understand and discover the majesty of Gods creation.

LJ
I believe Genisis speaks of remaking the earth so that leads me to some odd scriptures in Job. There are few hints of a previous fallen earth with angels. I have not spent any time looking into any of this becuz I will lose focus on more important wisdom needed. I say that to answer your question more specifically. I believe that the Biblical account represents aprox 6K yrs.

Sean Webb
Take my silence as being flabbergastingly speechless.

LJ
Im also crazy enough to believe that the bible is our creators loving wisom shared with his creation to point us to Jesus. We have a common enemy too. His name is Satan and his plan from the start has been deception. He loves it when humans think hes superstition.

Sean Webb

Satan really loves it when people don’t believe he’s the influence and voice in their own heads that separate them from God by creating the “me”, and he especially ESPECIALLY loves it when people believe it is Satan’s existence of that “me” that is needed to get closer to God and farther away from Satan. He loves when people hug closer to Satan in fear of him. He loves it when people hug closer to Satan in their search to get closer to God.

The system works perfectly to create pain, suffering, and separation from God in people who would think they are the holiest of holy. It’s in fact the only way to deliver those… who would think they’re saved and in God’s good graces… right into Hell… without them even kicking and screaming about it… in fact even sprinting headlong toward it.

I think your belief in the 6000 year old history of Earth is evidence enough that you’re never going to be saved from your plight, bro.

Sean Webb
BTW, the oil is from the foliage of that period, bro. People call it dead dinosaurs for fun, because they lived at that time also. Go cut down all your grass and trees and pile them up in the yard, then pile your family next to it. No comparison. Are you really that out of touch with reality?

I’m sorry you’ll never understand the reality of how God created all that life also because you can’t read it in some book that was assembled by a bunch of arguing bishops 1700 years ago from earlier writings of fallible men.

LJ
Im as concerned for you as you are for me. Im betting my eternity ALL on Jesus. May He bless you and fill you with wisdom my friend

Sean Webb
He already did, bro. You don’t listen.

LJ
I really meant absolute truth of Jesus

Sean Webb
What’s more absolute than getting first hand from the horse’s mouth? Is reading it from a book a better way to understand how a strawberry tastes? Or is actually tasting one a better way?

LJ
Have you considered the possibility Satan can come as an angel of light?

LJ
Test a spirit by wether it denys christ

Sean Webb
Ockham’s razor cuts both ways. If it’s possible for me, then it’s possible for Solomon, Paul, and all the others.

LJ
Their experiences come together in unity over thousands of years

LJ
Im glad we can be friends and disagree. I am usually a little too blunt. Im just very concerned for you and the others you are sharing with.

Sean Webb
You are weaving your web of unintentional lies into a congruency that supports your presupposed position.

I only tell people about the ancient holy disciplines used by others to meet God, and to believe only what they experience when they meet God, and to distrust all other man-influenced sources. I don’t have to give them a book like you would. They get it straight from God/Jesus directly. And when they come back their experiences are life changing for the better.

In the meantime, I explain the scientific motivations of the mind, and the process that creates pain and suffering (an understanding which God gave me), which has helped mothers of autistic kids break through communication barriers, and which has helped PTSD soldiers re-integrate into society.

I don’t deny Christ, bro. I deny the false testament that the Bible provides in a few places… and that the MISINTERPRETATION of the Bible provides within churches like yours. There’s a difference between Christ truth and Biblical truth the way it is being taught.

And the unrelenting evidence to support that is:

Factually, you are a danger to society in your beliefs, bro, and I am not in mine. You’re like a loaded gun. Sitting on the table, you’re harmless. But when someone influences your positioning, and provides the right conditions, you would kill your brethren human… even against God’s commandments… if you thought it was in defense of something your mind attached to.

I would not kill another under any circumstances, even if it meant the end of my own life or that of my family. And you and Satan can call that as sad or as scary as you like.

Sean Webb
He’s in there with you.

Sean Webb
He’s in there with you separating you from people with other faiths,,, separating you from people with different ideas… separating you from God’s actual truth… so that he can control you. He tries knocking on my head occasionally. But now I know how to identify him, and I don’t let him in.

LJ
You seem sincere. Are you sure there aren’t some occult teachings mixed in there?

Sean Webb
No occult teachings, bro. In fact I hope that you will one day be able to forget everything I ever said to you because you’ve replaced it with God’s truth that you received directly from God.

You should try listening for God once in a while, instead of talking to God. Contemplative prayer… which is what prayer is supposed to be, and which is the prayer the highest level Christian monks perform… is a silencing of the mind. No words. No images. No judgements. No thoughts. No Bible passages. You LISTEN for God. You create a space within your mind for God to fill. Why do they do this, and why is prayer supposed to be like that?

Because if you listen long enough, He will speak to you… not in words… but in an experience that overwhelms you and is so overpowering it makes you believe you are actually dying… where you believe that you are leaving this Earth to go to Heaven. Do not pass Go, Do not collect $200. I thought I wasn’t coming back.

If you sit long enough with enough deprecation of the “me” voice inside your head… that voice which would ask for the healing of someone you love… or for this week’s lottery numbers… or that your family be kept safe… when you shut all that BS off… He eventually comes to you. He comes to you because you have asked. Seek and ye shall find.

He comes in a way your mind cannot comprehend, and there is no question at that point… in every molecule of your body… you are convinced beyond everything you know… imagine feeling the love you felt when each of your kids was born multiplied by 1000… you will know it is God. And you will be thankful for His presence… even if that moment IS your last few moments on Earth (which it’s not). Think for a moment about the words “I surrender all”. What do you think “all” entails? It fits. I was willing to surrender my life at that moment.

And it is at that point you will then understand the difference between where you are now and where you will be. And you will then have received God’s grace. And it will change you for the better. And you will agree that you should forget every word I’ve ever said to you in every conversation we’ve ever had about God… and that you should trust only that which God has provided you.

And God WILL provide it if you ask. If you completely shut down the mind, and the “me” and remove that separation, He will come. Simply because you have asked in a way that is more substantial than using the voice in your head to ask. It’s not easy to do. But I don’t necessarily think direct access to the One Which Creates All should be easy to accomplish.

But… you will never find it unless you look. He will never come to you in that way unless you ask in the way that removes the noise which blocks you from hearing Him. And this is the true secret of Jesus’ teachings of being one with the Father and why he prayed for you to have it in John.

You don’t have to drop your church or practice to pick up contemplative prayer and start clearing your mind of thought to listen for God. Just don’t be surprised when the truth you get isn’t exactly like some of the stuff you’ve been holding onto. You need to go into it seeking God’s truth regardless of what you’ve learned so far. You’re not done learning yet.

The deep vision into the New Testament you gain is awesome. It’s like Jesus is a whole new (and even better) dude, with a whole additional level to his existence that you’ll get to appreciate.

Sean Webb
Add that to your practice… to listen FOR God,,, and you may one day receive God’s Grace and understand what I’ve been so inefficient in being able to communicate.

And if you one day happen to get to meet God / Jesus directly through Jesus’ teachings (like the one in John 17 that suggests he made you and I one with God just like He was – among dozens of other passages I could point out to you that suggest the same – the NT is a wholly mystical text)… IS THAT NOT ALSO BECOMING SAVED THROUGH JESUS?  That’s not even contrary to the base of your beliefs.

[SILENCE]

Did I get through to him?  Who knows?  I hope so.  Not for his eternal sake, but for his human one here on Earth. I hope he learns he doesn’t have to wait for death to experience Heaven.

So in conclusion I say that to all of you who have not yet experienced the light and presence of God… to those of you who have not experienced enlightenment… add contemplative prayer to your exercises.  He/It/WhateverYouWannaNameIt… will come.  ;-)

Peace.

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  1. As a Christian yogi, I found this to be a fascinating debate. I know you wrote this a long time ago but I just found it. I actually stand on both sides of the argument. Interestingly, you both think you’re right and want to prove it somehow. I suggest that both of you continue spreading the light of Jesus through your love and service and do it in your different ways. Guess what? We can never prove the existence or non-existence of God, so we have to do the best we can with what we’ve got. If both of you are good and doing good work, I wouldn’t try to convince the other to change his mind. But perhaps your debate stirs thinking and cultivates an open heart, open mind and continued discovery of God and yourself. If that’s the case, it was a good debate. Blessings to you both!

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